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Injector adaptors


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Scored some EV6 injectors to replace primitive EV1's. Everything looks easy peasy capacity/resistance/loom connector wise, however fysical size is different. So need some fuel rail adapters to lock them in place.

Anyone on here that has good experience with someone? mrinjector perhaps?

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lorenzo
22 minutes ago, Mark/Foggy said:

Man to talk to is @Cibbersicks

Not on here much anymore, but last I heard was working for an injector development Co.

Drop him a pm, send my regards. 

He works for Jenvey (or at least did last I heard), who make throttle bodies. Might not be able to help directly, but might also have good info.

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Thanks chaps! I did find plenty sites selling them but mostly on the other side of the world. Didn't really know how to measure the difference properly and those sites all mentioned the adaptor size. But I have found a company close to home and they specify on their site they are for EV1 to EV6 conversion.. so away with the guesswork! So thanks again but don't think I'm going to bother Cibbersicks with it just yet!

A while back someone had accidentally removed what seemed like dirt from the throttlebody bores, which he found out was a special coating (of his vfr800 iirc). He reapplied and then proceeded to do it on his TL as well, with good result. Made me curious to try that as well. As far as I've found out, the coating is basically a dry lube for low load application but with the appropriate temperature range..

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fuel filter nerdism. Thought I should post this here too. I've absolutely no clue if the stock Suzuki filter would be up to the job. That would mean filter around 12 micron and can deal with ethanol. Guess ethanol is something of late, so probably not. Really don't like to open up the tank for fuel filter mod, but if I want to fit the spiffy 12 hole injectors it seems like a wise thing to do..

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lorenzo
9 hours ago, TLRS said:

Fuel filter nerdism. Thought I should post this here too. I've absolutely no clue if the stock Suzuki filter would be up to the job. That would mean filter around 12 micron and can deal with ethanol. Guess ethanol is something of late, so probably not. Really don't like to open up the tank for fuel filter mod, but if I want to fit the spiffy 12 hole injectors it seems like a wise thing to do..

That raises an interesting point: assumingthat both sets of injectors flow the same overall volume of fuel, the new ones will have a much finer set of holes in them and, given that the original filter is still in situ and was designed to feed much bigger injector nozzles, does it mean the new injectors will be either clogged or damaged more easily?

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Yeah was thinking along those lines too. The new injectors have smaller holes, but that's only a cap apparently. So my reasoning is that the tech inside the solenoid might be similar? They have the same color (capacity) at the same pressure. So can't see a reason for a smaller bore between the actual solenoid and cap.. yet!

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Stock '01 TLS throttlebodies/fuel rail..

Thought about fitting TLR loom/tb/ecu to my mostly TLS project.. got most of the parts too from a TLR I used to have. But shelved that idea pending the results from this injector swap.

Edited by TLRS
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lorenzo

You've probably already done your research on this too, but there's another consideration regarding injectors than just CC, and amount of holes, but it's the actual spray pattern and how well that works on your application. This isn't on TLR injectors, but it does show how they differ in more ways than just flow rate. From left to right, these are 330's, 380's, 550's and then 440's. As you can see, the first 3 are all relatively interchangeable dependant on the needs of the engine, but the 440's are totally unsuitable as a substitute for any of the others just down to the spray, despite flowing enough fuel

 

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Thanks for that, made me look at WRX manifolds that used to house the injectors I want to put in. Need to have a look at the WRX heads to get a better idea about possible spray angle.

Did look at some TB's from s1000rr, 675, Ducati's, SB8 to see if there was anything to be learned. Seems the injector is much closer to the valves in distance, not sure about spray angle. But closer ought to be better, reducing 'lag' if there could be such a thing. Maybe I should calculate how much air is actually drawn in each cilinder at idle. And make a guess how much volume there is between butterfly and valves.. didn't think about that at all yet, so thanks for that!

Makes me wonder if the 440 injector is the one I'm trying to replace! The others seem to have a much finer spray? Seems to me I can't really go backwards from 2 hole injectors anyway. I'll look for some WRX injector testing material if I can find any, see if they've got a specific spray pattern.

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Gammaboy

I've always wondered if there's something to be gained from replacing one of the TLR injectors with an over the top showerhead (specifically the one that kicks in at ~ 5,000rpm)...

Not much to be learned from the SB8R injector setup (apart from it being a IW724 being fed 6 bar, vs Ducatis running paired IW724s at 4? Bar!!).. the SB8K SantaMonica setup though... I found a video that showed the moving injector setup in action - basically it moved from aiming the injector at the edge of the throttle blade at low throttle openings to pointing straight down the guts at big throttle openings... Meanwhile, the 999 appears to work well enough with the injectors up above the trumpets pointing down the middle the whole time...

Edited by Gammaboy
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Yeah how I would love to be able to machine stuff and make such a thing. Seems like new bikes still use it so it must work. Fit some cbr1000rr injectors (12 vs 4 hole on the TLR). Really digging the way fiddled TLR sound, like the RBT Tsunami..

Seems like the sb8 injector is in the metal manifold. That's a bit closer to the cylinder then both TL's. I'd have to check if that's true for the Santa Monica, that runs quite sweet as well. 4 and 6 bar is quite something though, didn't know that!

The aimed bit looks nice, but at high load/rpm the throttle ought to be open a fair bit anyway?

999 setup looks so much tidier, with the lines straight onto the injectors? Compared to the dog's breakfast that is the TL fuelrail..

Edited by TLRS
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kja.busa

I know of a busa that runs an aftermarket fuel set up, the bike is a big bore/stroker engine, not only is it running bigger injectors but an aftermarket pump and fuel regulator means it runs 65psi as opposed to the standard 42, the logic being better atomisation through the larger injector.

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Gammaboy
21 hours ago, TLRS said:

Yeah how I would love to be able to machine stuff and make such a thing. Seems like new bikes still use it so it must work. Fit some cbr1000rr injectors (12 vs 4 hole on the TLR). Really digging the way fiddled TLR sound, like the RBT Tsunami..

Seems like the sb8 injector is in the metal manifold. That's a bit closer to the cylinder then both TL's. I'd have to check if that's true for the Santa Monica, that runs quite sweet as well. 4 and 6 bar is quite something though, didn't know that! 

The aimed bit looks nice, but at high load/rpm the throttle ought to be open a fair bit anyway?

999 setup looks so much tidier, with the lines straight onto the injectors? Compared to the dog's breakfast that is the TL fuelrail..

Yeah, SB8R and SB8K Gobert are in the cast manifold bolted to the head.

SantaMonica got this lovelyness - top injector only (like a 999) - and a completely different ECU (MicroTech? instead of Weber Marelli).  Also went back to 52mm TBs (59mm on the other SB8 models). The position it's sitting in the pic is the WOT position - at idle it points at the edge of the throttle blades.

motorbike336466.jpg

 

I'd also look at running a TLS ECU, Ducati 999 injectors/trumpet/fuel rail and an adjustable regulator - fuck with the fuel pressure to get the thing running close enough, and mop up the rest with a powercommander.

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Really interesting details about the various sb8's. The S/M really only has the shower injector to work with? Seems like I've got some more sb8 engine response listening to do, if I can find some decent footage.

Wish I was tooled up for fitting other tb's. I reccon it could open up room for a shock, bimota style!

Are the 999 injectors high resistance as well? I'm not clued up well enough for such hybrid experiments. I have looked at cheap plastic bassreflex ports as bellmouths. And maybe shorten the tb's. Seems that would be relatively easy.

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Despite the webshop station they where in stock, I haven't seen them yet. Which gave me time to think about what to do with the fuel filter.. anyone any idea about the stock filters? Are new filters for an old bike made with the old tech, or will they have been made fit for today's fuel?

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Gammaboy
On 8/3/2018 at 12:44 PM, TLRS said:

Really interesting details about the various sb8's. The S/M really only has the shower injector to work with? Seems like I've got some more sb8 engine response listening to do, if I can find some decent footage. 

As far as I know, yes, they only use the shower. As does the 999 onwards.

On 8/3/2018 at 12:44 PM, TLRS said:

Are the 999 injectors high resistance as well? I'm not clued up well enough for such hybrid experiments. I have looked at cheap plastic bassreflex ports as bellmouths. And maybe shorten the tb's. Seems that would be relatively easy. 

 

I'd seriously look at grabbing a set of 999 throttlebodies/velocity stacks/injectors to mess with - they're cheap!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DUCATI-999-AIRBOX-BASE-THROTTLE-BODIES-INJECTORS/153091465817?hash=item23a4f66259%3Ag%3AozIAAOSwt5VbE~Yu&LH_PrefLoc=1&_sacat=0&_nkw=ducati+999+throttle+bodies&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0

 

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Sorry mate but can't see the big advantage for a streetbike.. They won't fit the intakes, need custom brackets to space them, new link made, tps adapted, injectors figured out, airbox adapted. I'm just not tooled up for that. And in the end they're still alloy tubes with a valve in the middle.

In the future I might have a go at shower injection. Most likely though, with a TLR loom, ecu and the 2x2 injector setup, possibly the tb's as well. With the adapters I'm getting the primary injectors would be a straight fit into the TLS throttlebodies, the others could be the showers.. providing something keeps them in place and provides the fuel. That's the only appeal those 999 setups have, they seem to have a hose crimped onto the injector. That would make building a shower injector very, very easy. I've had a good hard look at the possibility to do it with the EV6 injectors. And I think it could be done, creating some rings for the hose to grab onto. Some decent clamps, a hose, a car tire valve and a pressure test with a mtb shockpump I've lying around.

For some reason I keep going past the most obvious mod of them all: remove the restriction around the airbox flapper situation.

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Gammaboy
2 hours ago, TLRS said:

Sorry mate but can't see the big advantage for a streetbike.. They won't fit the intakes, need custom brackets to space them, new link made, tps adapted, injectors figured out, airbox adapted. I'm just not tooled up for that. And in the end they're still alloy tubes with a valve in the middle. 

I meant grab the TBs and adapt the bellmouths/injectors (Because it's cheaper than buying just the bellmouths/injectors - then sell off the TBs). The hose isn't crimped onto the injector - there's a piece that doubles as the top feed adaptor for the injector and as the injector hold down - they're a fairly conventional injector when they're not installed.

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Ah, yes that would be a plan.. looks like there are some tasty alloy bellmouth versions available too (jetprime). If the injectors are high resistance and either approx 450cc or 225cc, it may be fairly easy to adapt indeed!

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Gammaboy

From poking around and doing some calcs, the 999 injectors are 490cc/min. Dropping pressure from 42 to 36 psi would put you at 450cc equivalency, or you could just dial it out with a combination of full lean on a Yosh box and pc2/3

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2moto

I've done some detective work on a few Ducati injectors that may be of interest. If you're on the book of fakes you can read more here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1287093291328886&id=692918914079663

Otherwise I'll try to post more details when I get a chance from my pc. However, it was clear that the Panigale injectors are the ones to use, best spray pattern and atomization.

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14 hours ago, Gammaboy said:

From poking around and doing some calcs, the 999 injectors are 490cc/min. Dropping pressure from 42 to 36 psi would put you at 450cc equivalency, or you could just dial it out with a combination of full lean on a Yosh box and pc2/3

That would make it feasible to transplant the bellmouth and injector over to the TLS throttlebody! However, I'm not quite sure it's good for low end fuelling. There's a vid where it's clear to see the injector make a puddle of fuel on the throttleblade. I'm not convinced that's going to improve accurate pickup from 2000rpm? For racing it might be a very interesting proposition though.

7 hours ago, 2moto said:

I've done some detective work on a few Ducati injectors that may be of interest. If you're on the book of fakes you can read more here: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1287093291328886&id=692918914079663

Otherwise I'll try to post more details when I get a chance from my pc. However, it was clear that the Panigale injectors are the ones to use, best spray pattern and atomization.

Sorry, not on fakelook.. are you guys after an upgrade too?

To be honest, I'm trying to steer clear of ultimate solutions. A TL can be improved with way less. I try to go for a sensible approach these days. I've been procrastinating so much it made me loose my sanity (stop laughing) and the joy of the process as well as riding, because it was in bits. Still got plenty cool bolt-ons to fit as well, before diving into proper fabricating stuff.

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  • 1 month later...
22 minutes ago, TLRS said:

Adaptors finally arrived.. they're too big and don't fit the injectors.. now wished I had access to a lathe.

Well if you are anywhere near Burton on Trent you are welcome to use mine ( a little boxford )I`d offer to do any machining for you but you would be disapointed with the results, I`m very out of practice and wasn't that good in the first place.

 

I`m sure someone else will be along to offer help ?

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19 hours ago, TLRS said:

That's very kind.. I'm 300 miles away, as the very athletic crow flies. I'll figure something out.

If you don't mind posting I can sort them for a couple beer tokens?

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So I've bought a small piece of alloy bar a few days ago. Today I did the measurements for a drawing. There is a 9,2mm difference in injector length and the overlap of the fuel rail is 16mm:sFun_doh2:So basically I've -6,8mm to make the step where about 2mm is required, boy I'm stucking fupid sometimes.

So that idea is out the window. The only way I can see the fuel rail adapted is by lining it up perfectly under a mill, the injector seats are on an angle. Then weld it up 10mm, flatten the end and rebore the seat, repeat for number two. Or clamp the injectorbody differently and mod the injector to accept a hose with a clamp. Which would require making some sort of fuel line divider with provision for a FP regulator.

Looking at TLR throttlebodies again..

 

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